Forum:Enemy hitpoints
I removed my original post because it was a bunch of FAIL AND AIDS. This "issue" has been resolved thanks to some big help. Have a look at Greenpickle's awesome chart instead :P SniperPikmin 20:58, November 29, 2009 (UTC) :Interesting, I will run some tests We need more people like you. This is perhaps the single most productive post I have seen in a year. Join the wikia and become active :D I wonder if someone could look at the code of the game and determine what the values of the hp are in the programming. Maybe using some AR like device? I also wonder if, say, a purple's attack is different on a flying enemy than a Terrestrial one. And if, say, a Pikmin's attack is not necessarily dependent on its attack motions. It also would make sense that the dwarf snow bulborbs are weaker, because one encounters them earlier in the game. So, Sniper, do you belong to any other wikias or Pikmin sites? 14:31, November 16, 2009 (UTC) (IAMAHIPO_ocolor) :This actually makes perfect sense! I need to test these ideas out, though.-- ::Whoa! Man, that's POWER! Maybe we should do the same with other colors of Pikmin and in the other game, to see the differences. I can't. Sorry, but lately I've had some tough weeks and we're approaching final exams. Also, what about the recharge rate of enemies? For example, if you take a white pikmin and throw it at a creeping chrysanthemum, neither will ever die b/c the white pikmin is too fast to be eaten when the CC eats, and the CC regenerates health faster than 1 pikmin deals. This could really effect some enemies. 19:04, November 16, 2009 (UTC) This is SniperPikmin again. Wow thanks for the appreciation everyone! I thought I'd get laughed at or somethin and I didn't really think this would make sense to some people cause' i had a hard time explaining it lol. I'll join soon I'm just to lazy to make an account lol. Anyway, as of what I know of right now, a Pikmin's attack is not different with flying or terrestrial enemies. For example, a blue, yellow, or white pikmin's attack power would be no different from a Fiery Blowhog or Watery Blowhog. I also discovered that Red Pikmin actually do deal 2x as much damage as the others like the manuals said (2), and I also found out that Purples deal 3. I haven't determined how much their stun attack does though. I could be off about the purples BTW. And yes, the recharge rate of some enemies is a problem. Creatures like the Spotty Bulborbs and the Groinks would be pretty hard to determine. Even the 2 airborne blowhogs which I experimented with had a very slow recharge rate that I had to cope with. And no, I don't belong to any other wikias or pikmin sites. I'm just a die-hard pikmin fan who felt like contributing to the community! 20:30, November 16, 2009 (UTC) :If I burn the game to my computer I may be able to poke around the coding and find some stats. Although a Certain Programmer may be able to do it with more success About flying enemies having more HP than land enemies, it's impossible to tell either way, since enemy species have different HP anyway, so you wouldn't know if the difference is because they're flying or because of what exact species they are. It's a pretty silly concept. Next, I'm thinking about when Pikmin land on the enemies: that little squelch sound you hear when they first latch on, is damage done then? If so, is it equal to one hit or different (obviously for enemies where it's not a one-hit kill)? It's worth looking into for accuracy. You say you throw the Pikmin near them and let it attack, but obviously you can't do that for Dweevils, which are pretty low on HP and so it matters. It would also make more of a difference if you're not counting this for flying enemies, where they get thrown off a lot of times. Concerning the regeneration, it's pretty simple. First, count the total number of hits it takes to kill the creature and the time it takes to do this (it doesn't matter if it gets thrown off at all, as long as its HP never completely fills again; you just need to know how long it takes). Then, from full life, harm the beast to exactly half its life and time how long it takes it to revive. (Using half as it's easiest to measure; can't deplete all its HP, obviously. Maybe 3/4 would work fine too.) You can calculate the HP from those measurements. By the way, I don't have access to the game at the moment, as a few of you know already, and won't do for another month. :The only probelem I see is the health of enemies from Pikmin 1 and 2, because the Burrowing Snagret in Pikmin 1 had tons more Hp then it does in Pikmin 2, but other than that, this plan seems failproof.-- ::I too shall run tests on enemies. We can make a chart somewhere. Liek this but with enemies and Pikmin 1/ Pikmin 2 Sniper again. I wasn't trying to say all flying enemies have more health than others. I was saying that the damage dealt to a flying enemy is no different than dealing it to a ground enemy. Also, remember I could be wrong about the 2 airborne blowhogs' hitpoints since they had a very slow regeneration. Anyway, the little squelching sound Pikmin make when landing on an enemy is something that interested me as well at the time. I know Purple Pikmin deal damage on impact, but the others seem to interest me. I was experimenting with Water Dumples which seem to have 15 health by fighting it 2 ways. The first way was simply taking the one pikmin and throwing it near it or swarming it. The pikmin would usually smack it once, then latch on to it (which doesn't make the squelch sound), and start dealing damage that way. The 2nd way kind of got me a little confused. Instead I started throwing the pikmin directly on it instead so it would make the squelching noise when landing on it. What was odd was that I sometimes noticed the health drop down 1 when the Pikmin "squelched" onto the Water Dumple. The attack following the squelch didn't seem to do damage, but the ones following the previous attack do. I also noticed that sometimes damage is usually dealt a couple of milliseconds before the pikmin actually makes the smacking noise. My theory at first was just that the timing is just off in the programming, and the damage inflicted on the squelch is really just the first attack that the pikmin makes. Ehh its kinda confusing and i rly wish i could make a video instead to help me explain it better. And yea, Pikmin 1 enemies would be a problem as well, but I'll try to devote some time to it as well. If you were to start a chart any time soon, I'm pretty positive about the health values of all the lower-tier enemies in Pikmin 2 and could probably help out. Thanks for readin. :I wasn't trying to say all flying enemies have more health than others. - No, hipo did. And right, I think this would make sense in the infobox, with its own row (or rows if different HP in Pikmin/2), and the 'HP' subtitle would like to Pikmin:Hitpoints or something similar, where there's an explanation that the numbers are unofficial and how they're worked out. If a few people started doing this, it would help to reduce errors by checking your results against others. :...I'm sure bosses like TD and RLL will be fun. TD will probably need a number for each weapon separately and its final form, if at all possible. ::So, I presume my plan is alright? I will begin tonight and start filling in a table, and Sniper, you can help fill in, and we'll see if our numbers match up. :::Are you doing Pikmin 2? Maybe I can help with the first one this weekend. ::::I'm doing 2, btw I couldn't tonite, but tommorow I will. :::::OK, then please let me try in 1 this weekend. I command you not to play that game until further orders! ::::::I'll try Pik2, but then I might experiment with Pik1, but I'll let you do all the work, Snake.-- :::::::Me and Game'll do 2! Great idea, Sniper. Has anyone other than me ever wondered how much damage the Captain punch does compared to Pikmin? We could put that on the Olimar character page... Muramasan13 00:48, November 18, 2009 (UTC) :I will test with, Whites, Reds, Purples, Captains, And Landings (Red, White, And Purple Good question. I noticed that Captains deal slightly less damage than a blue, yellow, and white pikmin. The value could be somewhere between 0.1 and 0.99, but is most likely 0.50. This is the damage that captains deal from their normal punch BTW (not their 1-2-3 punch!). However, I noticed that Captains seem to deal the same amount of damage as normal pikmin when punching a petrified enemy. To prove this, I tested this on a Dwarf Red Bulborb- punching it while petrified. The moment the creature broke free, I petrified it another time and resumed punching it. In the end, it died within 20-22 hits, same as a normal pikmin. Therefore, this could be another method of determining enemy hitpoints! Anyway, I'm gonna fire up my gamecube rite now and experiment a little more and post a huge list of my results within the next few hours. Cya then! SniperPikmin 01:05, November 18, 2009 (UTC) :I needa experiment tomorrow, my dad is in a crappy mood tody and will destroy my Wii if I get on.-- ::Well, I'll try to play this week, but I doubt I'll be able to do it before the weekend, so until further advice, I'll be experimenting with Pikmin 1. So after redoing some of the enemy tests again, I have made a few mistakes. They still could be wrong, but I look forward to see what other people are discovering... *Anode Dweevil: 13. *Armored Cannon Beetle Larva: 90. *Caustic Dweevil: 13. *Cloaking Burrow-nit: 30. *Dwarf Bulbear: 40... maybe 36. *Dwarf Orange Bulborb: 18. *Dwarf Red Bulborb: 18. *Female Sheargrub: 5. *Fiery Blowhog: 90. *Fiery Dweevil: 13. *Male Sheargrub: 5. *Mamuta: 35. *Munge Dweevil: 30. *Ravenous Whiskerpillar: 18? *Skitter Leaf: 12. *Snow Bulborb: 15. *Swooping Snitchbug: 140. *Water Dumple: 20. *Watery Blowhog: 90. *Wogpole: 20. *Yellow Wollywog: 70. I'm a little bit unsure about the 3 Dwarves and the Ravenous Whiskerpilar. I am tired rite now and didn't feel like spending too much time on this so I kind of rushed a bit. I still need to do the Shearwigs, Hermit Crawmad, and a few others. Also as of right now, I'm assuming all enemies with "bucking" attacks (Fiery and Watery Blowhog, and the 2 Cannon Beetles) have 90 HP, so the Decorated Cannon Beetle's HP is probably identical. Correct me on anything if you wish and good night! SniperPikmin 03:27, November 18, 2009 (UTC) :Testing for me shall begin after NSMBW has been beaten! I have oly played it once and only for 2 hours before my dad became pissed. If I'm correct though, I should be at the Hole of Heroes, where I shall start my tests.-- ::Wow, Swooping Snitchbug seems high. Wonder how Bumbling compares. Should I go ahead and put these numbers up on the respective enemy pages? We can always change the incorrect ones, after all. Muramasan13 16:04, November 18, 2009 (UTC) :It's not implemented in the infobox yet. I'll do that in a bit, maybe today, though there's no reason to rush over getting these results in when we're waiting for others to verify them. ::Mhm. Also, are these taking figures taking into account of h=(a/t)-(r/t) where H-hp, a=attacks, r=regenration ticks, and t=time till death? 19:54, November 18, 2009 (UTC) Okay. I can do some verification testing starting Friday. We're gonna have a tough time with the bosses and one-time enemies, though! Muramasan13 19:45, November 18, 2009 (UTC) :Whoa! Lots of volunteers. For Pikmin 2? I hope so, because I'm not sure if I'll be able to try today. Green got disk image of game and is looking into code. WARING: contains large amounts of IRC randomness: :Gah! Meh eyes! *covers face in pain* Whoa. That's nasty. This is gonna ruin the fun of exploring enemy properties though. By opening up an iso are you able to edit the files and then play them back on an emulator? Could enemy AI be changed? SniperPikmin 00:36, November 20, 2009 (UTC) :I guess so, but I except AI would be pretty complex. At the moment, I've got a load of numbers for every enemy (with those weird names and not the ones we know) and it's hard to tell what they mean, so it could be a while. There seems to be comments describing each one, but it's not English, and the characters don't even show up properly; even if I switch to a Japanese encoding, I think it's not actually showing what they mean but rather what the characters' numbers happen to have analogues to, since I get weird words like 'bamboo in charge' and 'lull' and 'accumulation stop'. ::OK, I don't really get what you're doing, but I'll try with Pikmin 1 tonight. :::...Intersting stuff, Green.-- Yes, click and be amazed. Or something. It seems that the base attack for blue/yellow/white Pikmin is 10. And huge thanks to Greenpickle for the list of what enemy each name in the code refers to. Miles. 23:35, November 19, 2009 (UTC) That's amazing. I would've never expected their hp values to be like that! I didn't even think that the 2 variants of the Groinks and Cannon Beetles had different health values. The Raging Long Legs and the Pileated Snagret compared to the Burrowing Snagret are some standouts in my opinion. If you add an extra 0 next to my values, I got some right and was close with some of them :P. Anyway are you able to edit those values? Another thing I wanted to know is if you can give any enemy the random size distribution thing that the Hermit Crawmad has? It would be so cool to see all bulborbs come in varying sizes! EDIT: Is it possible to also find out the amount of damage each creature does? SniperPikmin 00:36, November 20, 2009 (UTC) I just experimented a bit in Pikmin 1 and got some surprising results: Wogpole: 6; Yellow Wollywog: 200; Pearly Clampclamp: 50, Spotty Bulbear: 185 (remember all this are approximate). So it seems yellow wollywogs are stronger than Bulbears! And then I tried some with reds and got this: Pearly Clampclamp:32, Spotty Bulbear:115, which tells us red pikmin have an advantage of approximately 1.6 times a regular Pikmin! Was it hard to do that Green?R to the P to the Wyb. Woah, what's up with honeywisp? User:Registeel999 :Well, it's not an actual enemy. That's why. You just make it fly away. ---- Two points to question: *Do we use the values we found in the game for the infoboxes? *Should 'vitality' be changed to 'HP'? I think it's more immediately obvious what the latter means, and it's more synonymous with gaming and more precise, but hipo prefers the former. (See Red Bulborb.) - :I think it's OK if we use health, stamina, or something else, it's just that HP doesn't fit the game at all. We talk about beasts as though they exist; vitality makes it seem more realistic. If Olimar was to write something in his notes about how many hits it takes to kill a beast, I think he would use health, vitality, stamina, etc., just not HP. 23:39, November 21, 2009 (UTC) :I ay we use the hits it takes them, not the values, and we should put "HP". BTW, did any of you see my Pikmin 1 results? :: ...Except the hits it takes varies. Captains take more, reds/purples take less, regeneration would mess it up... Also yeah, HP. Miles. 21:59, November 21, 2009 (UTC) :::I would be for taking the values divided by 10, but then Bulborb Larva is .5... Snakeboss: no, where are they? ::::Oops, messed up my sig. They are up there, but I'll just paste them here. Wogpole: 6; Yellow Wollywog: 200; Pearly Clampclamp: 50, Spotty Bulbear: 185 (remember all this are approximate). So it seems yellow wollywogs are stronger than Bulbears! And then I tried some with reds and got this: Pearly Clampclamp:32, Spotty Bulbear:115, which tells us red pikmin have an advantage of approximately 1.6 times a regular Pikmin! :...Okay, I actually did read that, just forgot. 1.6 sounds about right, compared to the 3/2 it seems to be in Pikmin 2. The others, I guess; I've always thought Yellow Wollywogs were quite strong in Pikmin. ::I'll keep experimenting today. I'm gonna try with all enemies to see which are different, but the Goolix... man, it's so strong! Second try: Mamuta and Goolix regenerate too fast for a single Pikmin to handle it. Spent a whole day trying to decipher the Dwarf Bublorb's HP. The results are 14, and 9 with Red Pikmin. ...I still have to disagree with the use of "vitality". If it absolutely cannot be "HP", for reasons I fail to understand, then at least use "Health" or something. Miles. 03:45, November 27, 2009 (UTC) I think stamina sounds good to me. Health and vitality could work too. I still like HP as well, even if it doesn't seem to fit in with the game, because it seems like a universal term that anyone could understand. SniperPikmin 07:02, November 28, 2009 (UTC) :Changed to health, 'cause vitality is fail. I mean, still up for debate, I guess, but health seems to be the most agreeable one to the majority. What about 'life'? ::Life sounds good, nice find whoever dug through the coding btw... Holy shit I missed a lot.... :::Dunno, life sounds weird. I say health. ::::HP! :::::Health sounds great to me. 05:58, November 29, 2009 (UTC) ::::::Hitpoints? :::::::1:HP, 2:Health, 3:Htipoints. ::::::::We're definitely not just going to shorten it to HP. Hit Points should also look better in the infobox.-- :::::::::Hit points sound good, it could work.-- Look at the title of the forum. Why was hitpoints our last resource? :As creator of this forum, I shall now declare that it be hitpoints! Everyone bow down to me! Nah, jk but good point snakeboss lol. If anyone is god around this forum it's definitely Greenpickle and Miles! So hitpoints it is? SniperPikmin 20:52, November 29, 2009 (UTC) ::OK, I say yes. Green, cold you make that with Pikmin 1? :::I called it! but... but when we talk about Pikmin, we don't break the forth wall usually (we don't acdknowledge that it is a videogame). We use realistic explanations and such. If Olimar was to describe the enemies health, he wouldnt use "HP" or "hit points". He would use stanima, health, etc. I really think it would be better if we don't use hp or hit points. 05:56, December 2, 2009 (UTC) :Sometimes it's necessary, for clarity, to have some stuff out-of-universe; and this is in an infobox, the existence of which is kind of admitting it's a game with constant data anyway. If you're that worried, I think 'health' is fine, and others have expressed a similar opinion. :...Still, don't go reverting some agreed-upon edit because it suits you. ::Hear, hear! What was "...Still, don't go reverting" referring to? Prez had changed to HP, and I thought we had agreed upon health... So I changed it back to health <.> 01:40, December 3, 2009 (UTC) :Still, since it's obviously not a malicious edit or some sort of vandalism, especially by a long-time member with a good record, question it where we're discussing it rather than just reverting it. ::Let's just decide I might be a tad bit late on this, but i've just realized something. There were Blue and Yellow bulborbs in the Pikmin 2 beta video, right? Check out the hairy bulborb and orange bulborb codenames.-Dapanguin- Punching Damage Yes, I've read above about how you guys were testing how much damage a punch from a captain does compared to a Pikmin, but how much do you think it does. I think it does 5 damage as it takes one punch to kill a Bulborb Larva and they have 5 HP. I think that once we figure out how much damage it does, we can put it in the captains' pages. Pikmin1254 :IIRC, normal punches do 7.5 and the Rocket Punch does 20. Miles. 00:18, March 22, 2010 (UTC)